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	<title>Comments on: When is a Church Really a Business?</title>
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	<link>http://www.mattglover.com/wordpress/wordpress/2005/12/21/when-is-a-church-really-a-business/</link>
	<description>Thoughts from Australian cartoonist and pastor, Matt Glover</description>
	<pubDate>Fri, 18 May 2012 01:15:03 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: california music therapy</title>
		<link>http://www.mattglover.com/wordpress/wordpress/2005/12/21/when-is-a-church-really-a-business/#comment-142128</link>
		<dc:creator>california music therapy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 05 Feb 2012 04:11:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mattglover.com/wordpress/wordpress/?p=64#comment-142128</guid>
		<description>My brother suggested I might like this blog. He was once totally right. This publish truly made my day. You cann't believe simply how so much time I had spent for this information! Thanks!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My brother suggested I might like this blog. He was once totally right. This publish truly made my day. You cann&#8217;t believe simply how so much time I had spent for this information! Thanks!</p>
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		<title>By: Dave</title>
		<link>http://www.mattglover.com/wordpress/wordpress/2005/12/21/when-is-a-church-really-a-business/#comment-77940</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Sep 2008 23:27:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mattglover.com/wordpress/wordpress/?p=64#comment-77940</guid>
		<description>Firstly I would like to say I was raised a Seveth Day Adventist and I still believe in the Faith. However I stopped going to church When the Fremantle Seventh Day Adventist church Spit the Service between Youth and Oldies (I didn't Agree with that) So I attended Cottesloe Seventh Day Adventist Church.  I have stopped going due to Volunteer (SES &#38; Surf Lifesaving) then work commitments. As I know the Sanitarium is a Seperate Entitity to the Church and it Runs it's self.  As far as I am aware the Sanitarium was founded by The Seventh Day Adventist Church I have gone to their website in their words (Exactly)

Sanitarium Gives its Profits for Charitable Purposes
Sanitarium Health Food Company was registered as Australia's first health food company in April 1898. It was established by the Seventh-day Adventist Church in Australia to promote and produce plant-based health foods based on its belief that plant-based diets are designated by God, our Creator, for the health of the human race1. Worldwide, the Church operates health food industries and health-care services based on this philosophy.

Sanitarium's enduring mission is to "inspire and resource our community to experience happy, healthy lives". As such the Seventh-Day Adventist Church and Sanitarium continue to share an explicit common reason and purpose of existence.

Sanitarium is a leader in producing foods of the highest nutritional value and appeal. It invests significant resources into community nutrition education through its Sanitarium Nutrition Services, providing unbiased advice and consultation to both health professionals and the community. The Company is a generous supporter of the community through charity partnerships.

IN RELATION TO SANITARIUM'S TAX STATUS IT IS IMPORTANT TO NOTE THE FOLLOWING: 
Sanitarium is proud to be a part of Australia's essential charitable sector 
The Company pays all local, state and federal taxes that apply to Australian companies apart from company profit tax. 
100% of Sanitarium's profits are given to the Seventh-day Adventist Church in Australia, for its charitable activities which include many projects that benefit the community in Australia. 
These include health education for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islanders, hospitals, educational facilities, financial support for the Adventist Development and Relief Agency (ADRA), as well as many family services and community projects. 
There is no commercial advantage to Sanitarium from its taxation status. An unlimited tax deduction is available to all companies and individuals in Australia that donate their income to an approved charity. 
Sanitarium Health Food Company is 100% Australian owned and operated, all profits stay in Australia. 
Sanitarium contributes to Australia's economy through the employment of 1500 Australian's, the purchase of Australian wheat and other raw materials, and working with many industry associated Australian businesses. 
1 Genesis 1:29

 As for Ministers I believe they should earn an Average wage of about $40000 a year which is what I earn. 


As for those ministries on TV I firmly believe they are all about Profit.  When I was going to fremantle Adventist church there was a guy who out of his own pocket video'd the surmans and took them to members who could not make it to church due to illness (This was done at No expense to the viewer) One could also go to the library at the church and view them as well.  (i.e.) Loan them out as you would a book at any other library. 

There also in any good church needs to be a commitee to set up goals and direction.  I may be a bit biased here but the Seventh Day Adventist church is how a church should be set up.  I do not believe in confessing ones sins to a Priest or Father etc as the Catholic Church Does as only Christ Jesus can forgive sins thru true and repentful prayer. 

Anyway that's all for now.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Firstly I would like to say I was raised a Seveth Day Adventist and I still believe in the Faith. However I stopped going to church When the Fremantle Seventh Day Adventist church Spit the Service between Youth and Oldies (I didn&#8217;t Agree with that) So I attended Cottesloe Seventh Day Adventist Church.  I have stopped going due to Volunteer (SES &amp; Surf Lifesaving) then work commitments. As I know the Sanitarium is a Seperate Entitity to the Church and it Runs it&#8217;s self.  As far as I am aware the Sanitarium was founded by The Seventh Day Adventist Church I have gone to their website in their words (Exactly)</p>
<p>Sanitarium Gives its Profits for Charitable Purposes<br />
Sanitarium Health Food Company was registered as Australia&#8217;s first health food company in April 1898. It was established by the Seventh-day Adventist Church in Australia to promote and produce plant-based health foods based on its belief that plant-based diets are designated by God, our Creator, for the health of the human race1. Worldwide, the Church operates health food industries and health-care services based on this philosophy.</p>
<p>Sanitarium&#8217;s enduring mission is to &#8220;inspire and resource our community to experience happy, healthy lives&#8221;. As such the Seventh-Day Adventist Church and Sanitarium continue to share an explicit common reason and purpose of existence.</p>
<p>Sanitarium is a leader in producing foods of the highest nutritional value and appeal. It invests significant resources into community nutrition education through its Sanitarium Nutrition Services, providing unbiased advice and consultation to both health professionals and the community. The Company is a generous supporter of the community through charity partnerships.</p>
<p>IN RELATION TO SANITARIUM&#8217;S TAX STATUS IT IS IMPORTANT TO NOTE THE FOLLOWING:<br />
Sanitarium is proud to be a part of Australia&#8217;s essential charitable sector<br />
The Company pays all local, state and federal taxes that apply to Australian companies apart from company profit tax.<br />
100% of Sanitarium&#8217;s profits are given to the Seventh-day Adventist Church in Australia, for its charitable activities which include many projects that benefit the community in Australia.<br />
These include health education for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islanders, hospitals, educational facilities, financial support for the Adventist Development and Relief Agency (ADRA), as well as many family services and community projects.<br />
There is no commercial advantage to Sanitarium from its taxation status. An unlimited tax deduction is available to all companies and individuals in Australia that donate their income to an approved charity.<br />
Sanitarium Health Food Company is 100% Australian owned and operated, all profits stay in Australia.<br />
Sanitarium contributes to Australia&#8217;s economy through the employment of 1500 Australian&#8217;s, the purchase of Australian wheat and other raw materials, and working with many industry associated Australian businesses.<br />
1 Genesis 1:29</p>
<p> As for Ministers I believe they should earn an Average wage of about $40000 a year which is what I earn. </p>
<p>As for those ministries on TV I firmly believe they are all about Profit.  When I was going to fremantle Adventist church there was a guy who out of his own pocket video&#8217;d the surmans and took them to members who could not make it to church due to illness (This was done at No expense to the viewer) One could also go to the library at the church and view them as well.  (i.e.) Loan them out as you would a book at any other library. </p>
<p>There also in any good church needs to be a commitee to set up goals and direction.  I may be a bit biased here but the Seventh Day Adventist church is how a church should be set up.  I do not believe in confessing ones sins to a Priest or Father etc as the Catholic Church Does as only Christ Jesus can forgive sins thru true and repentful prayer. </p>
<p>Anyway that&#8217;s all for now.</p>
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		<title>By: Rod</title>
		<link>http://www.mattglover.com/wordpress/wordpress/2005/12/21/when-is-a-church-really-a-business/#comment-2555</link>
		<dc:creator>Rod</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 May 2006 19:08:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mattglover.com/wordpress/wordpress/?p=64#comment-2555</guid>
		<description>I wonder why the NT after christ died only talks of Offerings.  hmmmm Maybe their is a reason for this</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I wonder why the NT after christ died only talks of Offerings.  hmmmm Maybe their is a reason for this</p>
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		<title>By: Rod</title>
		<link>http://www.mattglover.com/wordpress/wordpress/2005/12/21/when-is-a-church-really-a-business/#comment-2444</link>
		<dc:creator>Rod</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 May 2006 16:49:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mattglover.com/wordpress/wordpress/?p=64#comment-2444</guid>
		<description>When a condition of being a member is based on whether you Tithe.
Don't pay the subscription (tithe) cannot be a member of this church.
Speaking from personal experience</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>When a condition of being a member is based on whether you Tithe.<br />
Don&#8217;t pay the subscription (tithe) cannot be a member of this church.<br />
Speaking from personal experience</p>
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		<title>By: Matt Glover</title>
		<link>http://www.mattglover.com/wordpress/wordpress/2005/12/21/when-is-a-church-really-a-business/#comment-143</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt Glover</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 31 Dec 2005 00:54:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mattglover.com/wordpress/wordpress/?p=64#comment-143</guid>
		<description>Tithing. Business. SDA's...

Who says that themes are getting mixed up in ths thread!

If it wasn't 50 degrees C in my study at the moment, I'd start some new threads...suffering meltdown though. Maybe tomorrow.

Phew!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tithing. Business. SDA&#8217;s&#8230;</p>
<p>Who says that themes are getting mixed up in ths thread!</p>
<p>If it wasn&#8217;t 50 degrees C in my study at the moment, I&#8217;d start some new threads&#8230;suffering meltdown though. Maybe tomorrow.</p>
<p>Phew!</p>
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		<title>By: &#187; A referral and a conversation starter &#187; &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Signposts</title>
		<link>http://www.mattglover.com/wordpress/wordpress/2005/12/21/when-is-a-church-really-a-business/#comment-141</link>
		<dc:creator>&#187; A referral and a conversation starter &#187; &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Signposts</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Dec 2005 01:04:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mattglover.com/wordpress/wordpress/?p=64#comment-141</guid>
		<description>[...] First, go check out Matt&#8217;s post on churches and businesses as there are some interesting and thoughtful comments there. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;] First, go check out Matt&#8217;s post on churches and businesses as there are some interesting and thoughtful comments there. [&#8230;]</p>
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		<title>By: dan</title>
		<link>http://www.mattglover.com/wordpress/wordpress/2005/12/21/when-is-a-church-really-a-business/#comment-140</link>
		<dc:creator>dan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Dec 2005 00:47:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mattglover.com/wordpress/wordpress/?p=64#comment-140</guid>
		<description>I think that the business question here is being mixed with the tithing question.  Matt says that a sign of a business church would be the emphasis on money and giving.  However, I think this is a totally other (and also often objectional) question, but not one about a business issue.  I could conceive for example of a church which had a high emphasis on giving and took living sacrificially as a discipline which would be totally okay, so long as the leadership of the church was committed to living that way as well.

The question of business is different for me.  I don't have any objection to churches finding alternative means of funding themselves, as long as there was an inherent value in the work of the business itself.  In fact, I think new models of church need to look at radical ideas for being financially sustainable in a time when institutional loyalty and support is no longer the bedrock it once was.  Like Lance said above, the problem comes when there is an overlap between ministry and business.  However, I think that the objection that most people have to the business of Hillsong and the like is the commodification of christianity and worship as well as the prosperity model of it, rather than the simple fact that it is a business per se.

At Northern, one of our longer term plans is to explore how we could co-exist  with, partner or participate in a cafe (a real cafe with real coffee).  It would help create a sense of community for the people who come through our building every day as well as providing an opportunity to create some work training schemes.  We don't have any problem with the idea of the fact that we would be running a business (so long as it doesn't make too much of a loss) but I would have problems with some other businesses that might be suggested.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think that the business question here is being mixed with the tithing question.  Matt says that a sign of a business church would be the emphasis on money and giving.  However, I think this is a totally other (and also often objectional) question, but not one about a business issue.  I could conceive for example of a church which had a high emphasis on giving and took living sacrificially as a discipline which would be totally okay, so long as the leadership of the church was committed to living that way as well.</p>
<p>The question of business is different for me.  I don&#8217;t have any objection to churches finding alternative means of funding themselves, as long as there was an inherent value in the work of the business itself.  In fact, I think new models of church need to look at radical ideas for being financially sustainable in a time when institutional loyalty and support is no longer the bedrock it once was.  Like Lance said above, the problem comes when there is an overlap between ministry and business.  However, I think that the objection that most people have to the business of Hillsong and the like is the commodification of christianity and worship as well as the prosperity model of it, rather than the simple fact that it is a business per se.</p>
<p>At Northern, one of our longer term plans is to explore how we could co-exist  with, partner or participate in a cafe (a real cafe with real coffee).  It would help create a sense of community for the people who come through our building every day as well as providing an opportunity to create some work training schemes.  We don&#8217;t have any problem with the idea of the fact that we would be running a business (so long as it doesn&#8217;t make too much of a loss) but I would have problems with some other businesses that might be suggested.</p>
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		<title>By: Backyard Missionary &#187; Blog Archive &#187; When is the Church really a business?</title>
		<link>http://www.mattglover.com/wordpress/wordpress/2005/12/21/when-is-a-church-really-a-business/#comment-138</link>
		<dc:creator>Backyard Missionary &#187; Blog Archive &#187; When is the Church really a business?</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Dec 2005 13:09:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mattglover.com/wordpress/wordpress/?p=64#comment-138</guid>
		<description>[...] Matt, a Baptist youth pastor in Victoria and fellow Forge fellow asks this question on his blog. Some interesting debate here. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;] Matt, a Baptist youth pastor in Victoria and fellow Forge fellow asks this question on his blog. Some interesting debate here. [&#8230;]</p>
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		<title>By: hamo</title>
		<link>http://www.mattglover.com/wordpress/wordpress/2005/12/21/when-is-a-church-really-a-business/#comment-137</link>
		<dc:creator>hamo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Dec 2005 12:45:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mattglover.com/wordpress/wordpress/?p=64#comment-137</guid>
		<description>Haha! Sorry to hear that LF

My experience has been nothing but positive and encouraging. I have been surprised by how much we seem to hold in common - and I have asked questions :)

I guess there are heretical Baptists, Penties and SDA's all over the place.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Haha! Sorry to hear that LF</p>
<p>My experience has been nothing but positive and encouraging. I have been surprised by how much we seem to hold in common - and I have asked questions <img src='http://www.mattglover.com/wordpress/wordpress/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>I guess there are heretical Baptists, Penties and SDA&#8217;s all over the place.</p>
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		<title>By: Lionfish</title>
		<link>http://www.mattglover.com/wordpress/wordpress/2005/12/21/when-is-a-church-really-a-business/#comment-134</link>
		<dc:creator>Lionfish</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Dec 2005 21:54:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mattglover.com/wordpress/wordpress/?p=64#comment-134</guid>
		<description>Hamo, I did alot of reading on SDA theology in my younger days (I went through a searching journey). We also had some (lovely) SDA's live next door...they knew I was a Christian...but would give me 'books' to read.

Books with dark covers that looked like Stephen King novels and were all about America rising up from its lamb-like origins and making everyone worship on a Sunday...this was within the last five years or so..And Lionfish is still scarred. :-)

There are some more liberal SDA's, but again as a Church we need to look under the bonnet and 'pressure test' the theology. 

Back to the topic at hand.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hamo, I did alot of reading on SDA theology in my younger days (I went through a searching journey). We also had some (lovely) SDA&#8217;s live next door&#8230;they knew I was a Christian&#8230;but would give me &#8216;books&#8217; to read.</p>
<p>Books with dark covers that looked like Stephen King novels and were all about America rising up from its lamb-like origins and making everyone worship on a Sunday&#8230;this was within the last five years or so..And Lionfish is still scarred. <img src='http://www.mattglover.com/wordpress/wordpress/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>There are some more liberal SDA&#8217;s, but again as a Church we need to look under the bonnet and &#8216;pressure test&#8217; the theology. </p>
<p>Back to the topic at hand.</p>
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